A Critical Review of Compositional Differences in Soybeans on the Market: Glyphosate Accumulates in Roundup Ready GM soybeans (Bøhn, T., et al. 2014)
A Critical Review of Compositional Differences in Soybeans on the Market: Glyphosate Accumulates in Roundup Ready GM soybeans
By: Amelia A. Jordan
This paper does not meet minimal scientific standards in design, writing, or proper citations. To begin, a customary introduction should be full of credible references in order to set the stage for the study, however, there are no citations until the fifth paragraph. By that time, we have seen at least 12 statements that the authors do not give any citations for; most are statistics on GM-soy and glyphosate. The authors do not state the sources of this information, thus we cannot know if what they are claiming is supported by evidence.
This unfortunate trend in proper citation is repeated throughout the paper. You can see it with this un-cited statement: “Evolution of resistance to glyphosate is unfortunately progressing, particularly in the US. System vulnerability to resistance development is enhanced where there is a low diversity in weed management practice coupled with crop and herbicide monoculture.” This statement needs to have supporting evidence backing it up. It is far too lofty to make without any. With the lack of references attached to these claims, the authors have weakened the veracity of their argument. We do not know whether we can trust what they are saying.
References are also inappropriately used, as evidenced with this incomplete quote: “We thus document what has been considered as a working hypothesis for herbicide tolerant crops, i.e. that: “there is a theoretical possibility that also the level of residues of the herbicide and its metabolites may have increased” (Kleter, Unsworth, & Harris, 2011) was actually happening.” Unfortunately, the paper the authors incorrectly cite finds that “No general conclusions can be drawn concerning the nature and level of residues, which has to be done on a case-by-case basis.” (Kleter, Unsworth, & Harris, 2011).
In order for the authors to properly cite the data provided by Kleter, Unsworth, & Harris, 2011, they also needed to provide enough evidence supporting their position, either with data presented in their paper or by the use of another study. The authors fail to provide enough data in this study to do so, and they fail to provide any further citations to back up their statements. During the course of this paper, the authors not only fail to regularly and appropriately cite sources; they also fail to use the cited sources correctly.
Continuing from there, and as evidence of substandard writing, the authors do not even complete their reasoning in the introduction why food and food quality is crucial. We implicitly know why, but the authors do not (but should) state what food quality is crucial for: human health, animal health, etc. etc. The authors use words inappropriately or in incorrect contexts. Such as this line: “which can further accelerate the EVOLUTION of glyphosate resistance in weed species” [emphasis mine]. This is an incorrect use of the word evolution. What the authors should say is that glyphosate use encourages the selection for plants that are able to develop resistance to glyphosate. Natural (or artificial) selection does not equal evolution, with the end result of evolution being an entirely different species from its ancestor and selection of many varieties the mode of action. This is a basic tenant of the biological process and one the authors should be able to grasp; it is alarming that they confuse these two concepts.
I am skeptical of this statement in particular: “By comparing herbicide tolerant (“Roundup Ready”) GM soybeans directly from farmers’ fields, with extended references to both conventional, i.e. non-GM soybeans cultivated under a conventional “chemical” cultivation regime (pre-plant herbicides and pesticides used), and organic, i.e. non-GM soybeans cultivated under a “no chemical” cultivation regime (no herbicides or pesticides used), a test of real-life samples ‘ready-to-market’ can be performed.”
I do not know if the authors are familiar with the multitude of organic pesticides available for use in the US and so did not ask the farmer, or whether the farmer actually did not use any chemicals for treatment of weeds or pests. I find it highly unusual for a commercial organic operation to use no organic chemical controls themselves. I would have liked to see what type of organic regime the organic fields were under and confirmation stated in the paper that the authors asked the farmers what regime they were using. There are an untold number of different management practices growers can use in any combination, not to mention environmental variable that can drastically alter the crop being grown. We need to know those variables, so we can properly assess and put into context the data collected. It is unfortunate, that we are not given the context of this data.
I disagree with their ad hoc statement that testing soybeans straight from the fields is an accurate example of “ready-to-market samples”. By limiting their research to a handful of operations instead of performing lab tests so as to include the entire possible spectrum of grower operations, the authors fail to appropriately capture the true potential of glyphosate in soybean. This type of experiment has no proper controls for varietal, soil type, grower regime, etc. To be more succinct: the lack of controls presented in this paper, the unreasonably low number of samples per group, and the lack of data on sample variables lead me to believe that their conclusions cannot have any statistical merit.
EDIT: An observation from The Physics Police has shed light on why the ANOVA test was entirely inappropriate for this study. ANOVA requires independence, normality, and equal variances. While difficult to prove independence in many field trials, the authors never state that they ran any of their 35 variables, for each sample, through any test for equal variances. The attributes must demonstrate normality and equal variances in order for ANOVA to work. There is no mention of any such tests in their paper.
The authors claim that there are no pesticide monitoring programs in Canada, the EU, and the USA. This is a blatantly false statement, at least for the USA. There has been a pesticide food-monitoring program run by the FDA and in cooperation with the EPA and the USDA for decades now. The authors then criticize the USA, Canada and the EU for not having these (existing) programs; however, the authors don’t specify what these programs should be looking for. What are those programs supposed to monitor? Use? Concentration? Weed resistance? Residue? We don’t know, and not supplying us with a more detailed picture makes this tactic feel like a dirty trick. The authors falsely claim there is are no pesticide monitoring programs and then fail to put forth an outline of what those programs should look like.
For the sake of experimental design, the authors used the organic soy group as the control. I do not find this acceptable. A control is a baseline with all known variables identified and measured so that you can compare your findings with the least amount of error and influence introduced by those variables. To reference the previous edit with regards to statistical integrity, a control is used to compare distributions of data against to test for normality and equal variances. No control, no way to prove that your data have equal variances or normal distributions.
On the one hand, the authors want to prove that GM-soy isn’t as nutritious a product as organic soy, but instead of running greenhouse trials where they can control variables such as: the application of pesticides, the concentration of minerals in the soil, the specific soy varietal, the planting period, and the environmental conditions, the authors chose uncontrolled environments. By introducing unknown and unquantifiable variables into the experiment, the authors give up certainty in their results.
The authors do not provide any data on date of harvest, nor what was planted in previous years. They state no efforts to standardize sample collection within a field, nor time of collection post pesticide spray. None of these data are provided in the paper. What about flood plain status for the farms? What is the soil composition? What was planted the year before? CRP? Corn? Beets? All this information is crucial to the nutritional content of the crop grown and will affect the quality of the product.
The following excerpts from the paper highlight the largest problem with the study, the experimental design is deeply flawed and any data collected will be statistically useless. “Since different varieties of soy (different genetic backgrounds) from different fields (environments) grown using different agricultural practices were analyzed, we need to acknowledge that variation in composition will come from all three of these sources.” This is the purpose of a control. To reiterate, they would not have needed to make this statement if they had added a greenhouse control trial group.
“However, since 13 samples out of the 31 had at least one ‘sibling’ (same variety) to compare both within and across the different agricultural practices, how the same variety ‘performed’ (i.e. its nutritional and elemental composition) between different environments and agricultural practices could be compared. [] The ten samples of conventional soybeans were of four different varieties: The GM samples were from 8-9 different varieties. The organic samples consisted of nine different varieties. The conventional and organic varieties overlapped in the use of “Legend 2375” (n=3 conventional and n=1 organic sample). There was no overlap in varieties between the GM and either the conventional or organic varieties.”
The number of samples collected poses the largest problem with this experiment. The authors should have used n=30 for each group (GM soy, conventional soy, organic soy, and the missing greenhouse control group) in order to obtain meaningful statistical results. Instead, the number of samples collected were 1/4th the number that should have been collected. To add to this severe lapse in experimental design, there aren’t enough matching soy varietals between groups to conduct any meaningful statistical analysis. An n=4 is far too small a sample size to run any comparison with. There is one organic sample that can be compared with three conventional samples of the same variety of soybean. There is no way that the authors could derive any worthwhile statistical meaning from the samples they collected. There are just too few samples.
What is up with these figures? Figure 1: What is the point of showing the organic and the conventional groups if there was no detectable glyphosate in either and this finding has already been stated earlier in the paper? This is a waste of valuable space and makes the GM-soy group stand out like a sore thumb. It is visually misleading and holds no value. Also, that looks like a lot of variation in the AMPA and glyphosate detected, but we aren’t given a context in which to interpret them. I would like to see a confidence interval and data from other studies to compare those numbers against. Additionally, with an n so small and without having the relevant data on the farming practices used on each individual sample, we can’t make any inferences as to why we see the large variation or even the levels of glyphosate in the samples.
I really don’t understand Figure 2. What are the 35 variables they have standardized for, what does height mean, and in what unit is height? They measured 32 variables in table 2 and four types of sugars and fiber in table 3, but for the sake of being nit-picky, I want to see an explicit list of those variables to reduce confusion. All I see is a cluster dendrogram with a whole bunch of names and no guidance to tell me how to interpret it or assign significance.
Figure 3 is absolutely atrocious. What is the unit of measurement for the different axes and how exactly did they separate the groups out? They don’t tell us. Are there any variables that stand out as significant in separating all three growing methods? What are they? This figure is pointless because it assigns no significance, and like the other figures present, there is no legend!
Once again, the citation methodology in this article is unacceptable. In this excerpt, we see the first two assertions cited using questionable studies, and the third is not supported with referenced evidence whatsoever. “The increased use of glyphosate on Roundup Ready soybeans in the US (Benbrook, 2012), contributing to selection of glyphosate-tolerant weeds (Shaner et al., 2012) with a response of increased doses and/or more applications used per season, may explain the plant tissue accumulation of glyphosate.”
Even their data interpretation is substandard. “Using this formula, the data set has on average ‘glyphosate equivalents’ of 11.9 mg/kg for the GM soybeans (max. 20.1 mg/kg).” Wait, so the data set of n=10 have a mean approximately 55% the max level of ‘glyphosate equivalents’ allowed? Then what’s the big fuss about toxicity? I thought this was about nutrient equivalence.
The 4.3 Nutritional Components section in the discussion is full of unsubstantiated claims on soy and it’s role in a healthy diet. EDIT: the Observations article “Saturated Fat is not the Major Issue” recently published in the British Medical Journal highlights the changing data available on saturated fat. I follow the world of nutritional science pretty closely and this topic is coming under considerable scrutiny and review right now because assertions made decades ago about fats and their rolls in a healthy diet were actually not fully supported by the evidence presented. What’s more, they provide no numbers to put into context how much the differences in nutritional will affect a normal diet. There is a difference, but what is the impact? Is it something to get our panties bunched up for or can we meet for drinks at the beach and not think about it again?
The final nail in the coffin is that this paper cites Serlini et al. Any paper that uses a retracted article needs to immediately come under greater scrutiny. Addiitonally, the Monsanto, 1999 citation is nothing but a broken link to an “internet communication” and not an actual study. As evidence that the authors have failed to state their conflicts of interest, the author J. Fagan has ties to the organization Open Earth Source, which is staunchly anti-GMO. GenØk has been the subject of accusations of lies, fraud, and false information from Klaus Ammann, the respected Chairman EFB Section on Biodiversity from the University of Bern in Bern, Switzerland. The cited paper Benbrook, 2012 is by author Charles Benbrook, who is not a research scientist and whose own studies have come under significant fire for not holding up to basic experimental design. Overall, the authors are not independent scientists, but prove to have agendas that are reflected in their other work and with ties to biased organizations.
In conclusion, this is lazy science, shoddy writing, and a truly deplorable attempt to compare the nutritional quality of organic, conventional, and GM-soy. This study has the feel of a group of people who wanted a certain outcome and designed their experiment in such a way that a hand picked combination of variables would give them the results they were looking for. As we continue in this age to biotechnology, we need to keep abreast of what changes we see in food products, whether from new IPM strategies, new chemicals on the market, or new GM varietals available. These changes need to be tracked in controlled environments to better understand the mechanisms involved so we can adjust accordingly to new data. They should not be conducted in uncontrolled environments with miniscule sample sizes as an attempt to appease the public.
There is no University of Bern in Neuchâtel, Switzerland. The University of Neuchâtel is in Neuchâtel, Switzerland. He probably lives in Neuchâtel, but works at the Uniiversity of Bern in Bern. Double check your sources.
Great! Thank you for pointing that out. I let Amelia know, and she sent in the correction which I’ve just added. We appreciate your help!
I double checked and Klaus Ammann is a professor at the University of Bern, in Bern Switzerland. Thank you for your correction.
Dear Statistique, the situation: I am an emeritus honorary Prof. from the University of Bern, where I was lecturing for decades and also was directing the Botanic Garden of the University, After retirement I moved to Neuchâtel,with my family. For more details see
http://www.ask-force.org/web/Curriculum/Links.pdf with bibliographies etc.
Klaus Ammann
Here are all of the comments from the gmosf.org page that is now redirecting here. Sorry for the mess, I couldn’t figure out how to import them.
mem_somerville (@mem_somerville)
January 19, 2014 at 11:56 am (Edit)
I’ll have to read this more carefully later, but it was very light on sourcing their claims, that’s for sure. Some stuff was just put there with the assertion it’s true–nothing to back it up in this work or other work.
And just today I was in another conversation that made me look up this paper: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1000734#abstract0
There are hundreds of gene differences between just these two strains. No reference to that kind of detail, nor to many other studies that show that environment and variety has much more impact on differences than just the GMO piece.
What is with reviewers these days? Is everyone just overlooking this stuff?
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Knigel
January 19, 2014 at 12:30 pm (Edit)
Thank you very much for your comment Mem. Amelia has told me that she will work on getting some references into the post, so we’ll get it updated soon.
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mem_somerville (@mem_somerville)
January 20, 2014 at 9:39 am (Edit)
Oh, I wasn’t criticizing Amelia–I meant the people who accepted this paper.
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Knigel
January 20, 2014 at 9:43 am (Edit)
Haha, okay, still, we want to add a few references 🙂
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kelly
January 28, 2014 at 10:14 pm (Edit)
Fine, but who is Amelia A. Jordan and what are HER credentials?
inquiring minds want to know…
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Knigel
January 28, 2014 at 10:24 pm (Edit)
Thank you for your comment Kelly. Which one of Amelia’s claims do you think she needs credentials to make?
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Kelly Nunn Martin
January 29, 2014 at 9:05 am (Edit)
Frankly, I found it ironic that after being rather dismissive of the research she was reviewing, based on lack of documentation and citations, she fails to provide the reader with any credentials of her own. Just as the research would be more credible with careful documentation, so would Jordan’s critique be more credible if she provided evidence of a science background or relevant credentials, while she critiques the scientific findings of, presumably, more qualified people.
That’s all.
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Knigel
January 29, 2014 at 11:17 am (Edit)
I can understand how credentials might add some peripheral persuasion; however, skepticism does not solely fall on the shoulders of the experts. There are legitimate and illegitimate forms of an appeal to authority, and I don’t think there is anything in this critique that would need to be supported with credentials. If you think there is a specific claim that needs to be better supported, certainly point it out and I can talk to the forum to get a citation for the claim.
Otherwise, dismissing Amelia’s critique simply because I have not listed her credentials would be a fallacious ad hominem on your part. In reason, we should critique arguments based on their own merit, not based on who makes the argument. Unless specifically relevant to the discussion, there is no need to make things personal. For example, if someone begins their argument with “As a scientist…” or “As a doctor…” we can logically question their credentials because they are used as a premise for an argument. Actually having the credentials is relevant if someone is claiming something they might not be.
Furthermore, credentials do not make someone correct. Even the best scientists make mistakes and are prone to human bias. For that reason, science uses strategies of peer-review and encourages criticism. While training in science generally improves the quality of criticism, that does not mean the public is barred from adding their own criticism.
In the end, one of the main goals of GMO SF is promoting science literacy. We encourage citizen science and increased scientific reasoning in the public. The backbone of the GMO SF project is to increase the public’s participation in skepticism and science; therefore, we help individuals with their projects and criticisms.
Again, the issue is if the criticisms are relevant and valid, not about who is making the critique. If you are basing your judgments merely on presumed authority, you will be quickly deceived. The details, evidence, and reasons needs to back up each claim, no matter who says them.
Here are a few resources:
1. Appeal to authority: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_verecundiam
2. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
3. Forat Janabi’s discussion on legitimate and illegitimate appeals to authority: http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/12/03/from-anti-gmo-to-pro-science-a-laymans-guide-to-gmos/
I also encourage you to bring your questions and criticisms to our Fabebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GMOSF/
We had a lengthy discussion about the original study here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GMOSF/permalink/337462046393052/
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Kelly Nunn Martin
January 29, 2014 at 1:28 pm (Edit)
Your points are taken. Please excuse me if I offended a friend or student of yours, that was not my intent. In fairness to the writer, I did not read the entire critique because i was immediately taken aback by two criticisms against the study;
1. The writer criticizes the study for having no citations in the first four paragraphs. It seems clear to me that the first four paragraphs are merely the introduction to the study, and have no relevance to the results of the research. The few facts about where and in what percentage crops are being grown around the world is, it seems to me, considered common knowledge to the researcher’s peers in the scientific community, and easily supported on the Dept of Agriculture’s website.
2. The critique writer’s statement,”Then what’s the big fuss about toxicity? I thought this was about nutrient equivalence,” (paragraph 18), also struck me curious. After all, item number 1 under “Highlights” lists “Glyphosate tolerant GM soybeans contain high residues of glyphosate and AMPA.” Toxic effects of these substances was reported on in 2003 by the World Health Organization –Link: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/glyphosampasum.pdf 2003 but that was limited to residual levels in drinking water. What this new research implies is that these low-level toxins might be building up in higher amounts in the soybeans. So yes, possible “toxic effects” of these two chemicals is clearly a major focus of this study, along with nutrition.
Did I miss something here? If I do, then to what end does Jordan make this remark, if not to imply that the research is going off in irrelevant directions?
Jordan seems to make some excellent points elsewhere, but by putting forth petty and irrelevant criticisms, she undermines her own, very good points.
I am only here to learn and to seek out the ideas of others. I support scientific advancement. But I am beginning to think that the real point of this group is to trash or discredit anyone who questions the long-term consequences of genetically modified foods.
Incidentally, I am certainly no PhD myself. I have a BA in English, and I am yet 4 credits shy of a second undergrad degree in biology. It is my intent to return to school to study biotech.
Speaking of logical fallacies, I find them running rampant here.
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Knigel
January 29, 2014 at 2:08 pm (Edit)
Hi again Kelly. I appreciate that you’ve taken more time to give more precise criticisms.
First of all, if you aren’t willing to read the full article before dismissing it, critical discussion becomes much harder. Would this strategy work with your English courses? “I read the first chapter, but this book is garbage.” One of the principles we encourage in our GMO SF communities, is the principle of charity. We want to focus on the strongest arguments rather than dismissing work based on superficial or weaker aspects. For example, instead of dismissing the original study, our community looked for the fundamental flaws. If you haven’t already, I suggest taking a look at the original thread. You can ask further questions there.
“But I am beginning to think that the real point of this group is to trash or discredit anyone who questions the long-term consequences of genetically modified foods.”
Our rules specifically discourage anyone from dismissing others without proper reason. While certainly not perfect, our moderators work very hard at making sure no one is dismissed automatically. Even when someone posts websites which are notoriously bad, we will warn people, but then offer to work together through the evidence. Further, you can find several threads where we encourage various criticisms: http://www.gmosf.org/wiki/index.php?title=GMO_SF_Wiki:Headliners
We’ve recently put together a FAQ that answers your claim:
“Your forum is biased. Why didn’t anyone post this information I think is important?”
Answer: “Did you post it?”
“http://www.gmosf.org/wiki/index.php?title=GMO_SF_Wiki:FAQ
If you have that impression, you’re more than encouraged to post any evidence you think we’re missing in our forum. I implore you to do so. If your evidence and reason is strong, as skeptics we should change our beliefs. I know that the GMO SF project might be difficult to place into some of the more popular narratives, but I hope that you reserve your judgement for a while until you’re really put in the effort to try to figure out what we’re about.
“Speaking of logical fallacies, I find them running rampant here.”
Another one of our principles is to “show, not just tell”. Anyone can make claims, the more challenging endeavour is to demonstrate it. If you think I’ve made a logical fallacy, feel free to show me how. Please don’t dismiss my relevant points with a tu quoque response.
For your specific criticisms, I’ll bring them to our forum to see if someone would like to give you a specific answer. However, I suggest that you take some more time to read the critique since your questions might have already been answered.
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kkburson
January 29, 2014 at 2:55 pm (Edit)
Kelly,
I am one of the moderators on GMO Skepti-Forum and also participated in the thread discussing this paper and the flaws with the study. I will do my best to address your criticisms.
1.The writer criticizes the study for having no citations in the first four paragraphs. It seems clear to me that the first four paragraphs are merely the introduction to the study, and have no relevance to the results of the research. The few facts about where and in what percentage crops are being grown around the world is, it seems to me, considered common knowledge to the researcher’s peers in the scientific community, and easily supported on the Dept of Agriculture’s website.
Actually, citations in the introduction are expected. Here is a site that provides good reasons as to why this is necessary and a couple of links to papers to show how that can be done:
http://tim.thorpeallen.net/Courses/Reference/Citations.html
[PDF} http://kt.ijs.si/marko_debeljak/Lectures/Nancy/Nancy_DEC_07/DSS_1_soil_quality.pdf
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048169
2. The critique writer’s statement,”Then what’s the big fuss about toxicity? I thought this was about nutrient equivalence,” (paragraph 18), also struck me curious. After all, item number 1 under “Highlights” lists “Glyphosate tolerant GM soybeans contain high residues of glyphosate and AMPA.” Toxic effects of these substances was reported on in 2003 by the World Health Organization –Link: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/glyphosampasum.pdf 2003 but that was limited to residual levels in drinking water. What this new research implies is that these low-level toxins might be building up in higher amounts in the soybeans. So yes, possible “toxic effects” of these two chemicals is clearly a major focus of this study, along with nutrition.
Did I miss something here? If I do, then to what end does Jordan make this remark, if not to imply that the research is going off in irrelevant directions?
The question about the ‘big fuss about toxicity’ is in response to the fact that glyphosate levels were well below the max allowed, so it’s more of a ‘why even mention it?’ comment.
The link you provided to the WHO page says:
“Glyphosate and AMPA have similar toxicological profiles, and both are considered to exhibit low toxicity. A health-based value of 0.9 mg/litre can be derived based on the group ADI for AMPA alone or in combination with glyphosate of 0.3 mg/kg of body weight, based upon a NOAEL of 32 mg/kg of body weight per day, the highest dose tested, identified in a 26-month study of toxicity in rats fed technical-grade glyphosate and using an uncertainty factor of 100.
Because of their low toxicity, the health-based value derived for AMPA alone or in combination with glyphosate is orders of magnitude higher than concentrations of glyphosate or AMPA normally found in drinking-water. Under usual conditions, therefore, the presence of glyphosate and AMPA in drinking-water does not represent a hazard to human health. For this reason, the establishment of a guideline value for glyphosate and AMPA is not deemed necessary.”
The toxicity of glyphosate and AMPA, therefore, are low enough that the WHO didn’t even think that a guideline value needed to be established. In fact, there are many herbicides and other chemicals that are much more toxic than glyphosate, including some allowed for use in organic farming and, interestingly, caffeine.
[PDF] http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/admin/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/29/W270.pdf
Finally, even if you remove those two items that you object to from the critique, there are still several reasons why this study is less than optimal and should not be considered credible without further studies, that have better experimental design, confirming the findings.
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kelly
January 30, 2014 at 10:24 pm (Edit)
I told you honestly at the very first that I had not read the full critique very carefully before I responded, because of the problems I saw with it right away. C’mon, documentation in those first paragraphs is a problem with the study? She went on quite a bit about that, and I thought it was petty. And, she mocked the fact that toxicity was brought into the discussion, when this was a highlighted point. These things, in my opinion, contributed to a tone that came off as dismissive and less than scholarly. It made me feel that the writer had an agenda other than to evaluate this research; it seemed to me that she was on a mission to tear it down. This was my opinion only, clearly it is not yours.
This is what precipitated my first comment. I really was curious to know if this person was a biology student, or if she had some association with the GMO industry. I was not trying to be rude and I already apologized if I sounded so. I think it is only fair, in the company of fellow skeptics, to state our vested interests if we have them.
Now, to answer your other questions and comments.
I was not attacking the writer. I was taking issue with something she wrote, just as you took issue with something I wrote. You became defensive when I remarked on Jordan’s paper, so I must wonder are a friend.
Wait a minute…it is okay to say whatever she wants about someone else’s work, but if anyone takes issue with hers, it’s a problem?
Next, I already stated the other day that, in fairness to Ms Jordan, I needed to give both the study and the critique a more careful read. I also said that yes, she made some good points. How is this a personal attack on the writer?
As for whether we should draw conclusions from the research, I would say that I would like to see this study broken down into smaller parts. These parts should be studied by others, and yes, documented very carefully. If someone wants to re-examine 11-year-old research on glyphosate and AMPA, we should be willing to consider it if they can present new evidence. We should know if any of the research is sponsored by people with a vested interest in GMO or Organic food production.
One remark I have to make is that I got the impression (and I may be wrong) that people on this site may have some kind of interest in the GMO industry, first by what I thought were a few petty criticisms in an otherwise solid critique, and again after reading what looked very much like a PR piece on Monsanto.
I thought I would learn something here, and engage in respectful debate. I have been open and sincere, even when Marc criticized my typos. I guess that is the “spirit of charity” that we are going for.
I would really like to believe than none of us has time to continue this.
Peace.
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Marc
January 30, 2014 at 10:44 pm (Edit)
Where did I criticize typos?
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Knigel
January 30, 2014 at 10:48 pm (Edit)
What you were doing is called JAQing off. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off
“JAQing off – 1. the act of spouting accusations while cowardly hiding behind the claim of “just asking questions.” 2. asking questions and ignoring the answers”
Instead of reading through the material or doing even the basic inquiry into who we are, you went straight into trying to confirm your biases.
In any case, we’ve answered your questions and our offer is still on the table if you would like to discuss the study and critique in detail.
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Knigel
January 30, 2014 at 11:21 pm (Edit)
By the way, here is our FAQ which goes over our agenda and discusses conflicts of interest (Although this discussion is irrelevant to the actual critique) http://www.gmosf.org/wiki/index.php?title=GMO_SF_Wiki:FAQ
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Knigel
January 31, 2014 at 9:01 am (Edit)
Since it’s a new day, and I’m more awake, I’m going to give you a more detailed response.
“I told you honestly at the very first that I had not read the full critique very carefully before I responded, because of the problems I saw with it right away.”
Criticising a critique before actually doing your homework is a dysfunctional strategy. By doing this, you’re basing your criticisms on superficial assumptions and kneejerk reactions. Before you criticise someone, you should make sure you read the material first. Starting with the position that the critique was wrong, and then looking for any detail that could confirm your bias is lazy and mean.
“C’mon, documentation in those first paragraphs is a problem with the study? She went on quite a bit about that, and I thought it was petty. And, she mocked the fact that toxicity was brought into the discussion, when this was a highlighted point.”
Kerri in another comment has already addressed these criticisms of yours. You have yet to respond.
“These things, in my opinion, contributed to a tone that came off as dismissive and less than scholarly.”
So instead of actually addressing the evidence or arguments, you’re just tone trolling. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_troll
“It made me feel that the writer had an agenda other than to evaluate this research;”
You had this feeling, but you didn’t put in the time to actually read the whole thing to see if the study was properly evaluated.
“it seemed to me that she was on a mission to tear it down.”
Yes, this is what skeptics do. Skeptics apply skepticism to determine the weaknesses of claims. Further, science is a highly critical activity. We aim for quality research; therefore, we should point out the flaw in methodological design. If you look at the forum thread, you’ll see that this critique was a community project, and several people were involved revealing how bad this research is.
“This was my opinion only, clearly it is not yours.”
You’re right. I actually took the time to look at the available evidence. You couldn’t be bothered to do so.
“This is what precipitated my first comment. I really was curious to know if this person was a biology student, or if she had some association with the GMO industry.”
Exactly. Your intent was obvious. You’re working from the same tired script we see every day. Instead of actually doing any mental heavy lifting, you seek any opportunity to dismiss things that don’t support your worldview. Instead of looking directly at the evidence and arguments provided to you, you try to undermine the critique with ad hominem. You didn’t seem to get it before, so I’ll explain it now. Ad hominem is when someone attempts to undermine an argument by attacking a person’s character instead of attacking the argument directly. Her occupation is irrelevant. Even if she was in association with the GMO industry, then what? Dismiss her work without reading it? That’s irrational and an ad hominem. In fact, your repetitive script has become so popular, it now has a name: Argumentum ad Monsantum: http://www.skepticblog.org/2012/11/08/argumentum-ad-monsantium/
“I was not trying to be rude and I already apologized if I sounded so.”
JAQing off is very rude. Criticising without actually reading what someone wrote is also rude. You’ve apologised for neither of this things.
“I think it is only fair, in the company of fellow skeptics, to state our vested interests if we have them.”
You aren’t a fellow skeptic. We don’t have vested interest, so we have nothing to state. If you wanted to know, you could have been straight up and asked. Instead of asking an honest question, you assumed there was a conflict of interest and acted accordingly.
“I was not attacking the writer.”
Yes you were. JAQing off and ad hominem is an attack on the character. If you were focused on the evidence and critiques, we would be having a much different conversation and a more productive mutual exchange of ideas.
“I was taking issue with something she wrote, just as you took issue with something I wrote.”
You didn’t even read what she wrote.
“You became defensive when I remarked on Jordan’s paper, so I must wonder are a friend.”
No, I used your irrational statements as a teaching opportunity. I’m demonstrating why your arguments are fragile and your intentions are obvious.
“Wait a minute…it is okay to say whatever she wants about someone else’s work, but if anyone takes issue with hers, it’s a problem?”
I’m criticising your criticism of her critique. I’ve also allowed your comments through moderation so that we could discuss them. One main difference between her criticism and yours is that she actually took the time to read the source material, and she provided a thorough and rational critique based on the evidence. Your criticism is based on a kneejerk reaction from something you haven’t even read. As Kerri has pointed out, your criticisms are also invalid.
“Next, I already stated the other day that, in fairness to Ms Jordan, I needed to give both the study and the critique a more careful read. I also said that yes, she made some good points. How is this a personal attack on the writer?”
Yes, the smart thing to do would be to read the work first THEN comment. Your current strategy is ridiculous.
“As for whether we should draw conclusions from the research, I would say that I would like to see this study broken down into smaller parts. These parts should be studied by others, and yes, documented very carefully. If someone wants to re-examine 11-year-old research on glyphosate and AMPA, we should be willing to consider it if they can present new evidence. We should know if any of the research is sponsored by people with a vested interest in GMO or Organic food production.”
If you haven’t bothered to read the critique, how would you even know this wasn’t done or needed to be done? How can you stubbornly defend a work you haven’t even read? Seriously, it doesn’t take much to know if some studies are bad science. A design flaw is a design flaw. Amelia’s critique gives several reasons why this research should not be trusted. Our community took the time to make your life even easier, but you didn’t even bother to read it. Our community got together to help point out why this study shouldn’t be trusted, and you dismissed it without looking at it.
“One remark I have to make is that I got the impression (and I may be wrong) that people on this site may have some kind of interest in the GMO industry, first by what I thought were a few petty criticisms in an otherwise solid critique, and again after reading what looked very much like a PR piece on Monsanto.”
You didn’t even read the critique, so you don’t even know if it’s “an otherwise solid critique”. You’re trying to balance your JAQing off by suggesting there were good points as well, but you have yet to state what those good points were. I don’t trust that you looked for good points. What you are doing is the old passive aggressive tactic of saying mean things behind something nice: “I respect you, but I have absolutely no respect for you.”
Did you read the piece I wrote on Monsanto? Did you test your assumption by investigating further? In any case, you are wrong. We have no affiliation with the GMO industry. This is an independent and volunteer project promoting skepticism and scientific literacy.
“I thought I would learn something here, and engage in respectful debate.”
I don’t believe this is true. If you wanted to learn something, you would have read the critique and wouldn’t have opened by JAQing off.
“I have been open and sincere”
Your behaviour suggests otherwise.
“even when Marc criticized my typos. I guess that is the “spirit of charity” that we are going for.”
I don’t see anywhere that Marc criticised your typos. He teased you for not reading the critique before commenting. I think that was well deserved.
“I would really like to believe than none of us has time to continue this.”
No problem. Our webpage isn’t here for you to spout nonsense; therefore, you’re welcome to bring your discussion to our Facebook forums. If you aren’t commenting on the details of the critique itself, I will not be allowing any more of your comments come through moderation on this webpage. Our page isn’t here as your platform.
Reply
Knigel
January 29, 2014 at 2:28 pm (Edit)
Please also keep in mind the main purpose of the critique. The questions are: “Is this good science? Should we draw conclusions from this research?” Even if you found a few weaknesses in the critique, it only takes a few good criticisms to bring down the overall confidence in the initial research. You mentioned that the critique offered a few good points. What were they? Were they strong enough to demonstrate that we should not draw conclusions from the study? Were they strong enough to say that the study was poorly done and not good science? If you don’t think the good points were successful, why do you think that?
Reply
Marc
January 29, 2014 at 2:51 pm (Edit)
Kelly,
I was curious to read your follow up, I found it quite fascinating, I have to admit that I didn’t read all of it.
This is as far as I got:
I did not read the entire critique because i was immediately taken aback by two criticisms
Reply
Nathan
February 3, 2014 at 7:31 pm (Edit)
One issue with the study design was the variety selection. One of the RoundUp Ready varieties, Prairie Brand PB 2217VNRR, is actually a low linolenic oil variety (http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/crops/research/2009/south/2009%20Soybean%20Variety/Low-Lin.pdf, table 2) and has been purposely bred to have altered oil composition compared to the normal soy oil profile. It appears that the conventional and organic varieties were from standard oil profile lines, so with such a small sample size for the comparisons, it isn’t surprising that there oil profile differences in the study.
Reply
clayfcraig
February 9, 2014 at 3:38 pm (Edit)
I thought the critique had many very valid points. Generally I’m not too focused on her inflammatory language as long as her points are valid. However, I do think she goes overboard with her defense of “scientific standards”. For example, yes, it would be nice if the study isolated many variables, and would certainly improve the general applicability of the results. But they didn’t attempt to extrapolate their conclusions beyond their modestly-sized and somewhat-uncontrolled dataset. I personally found the data to be very useful, despite its limitations.
“Then what’s the big fuss about toxicity? I thought this was about nutrient equivalence.” Firstly, the paper is about “Compositional Differences”. Where did it restrict its scope to nutritional differences?
Secondly, the EPA has the following toxicity guidelines at http://www.epa.gov/safewater/pdfs/factsheets/soc/tech/glyphosa.pdf :
“Drinking water threshold for children: 1- to 10- day: 20 mg/L; Longer-term: 1 mg/L”
Since 1mg/L is about 1mg/kg, and the GM soy in the paper averages 11mg/kg, then how if this not relevant to, for example, a vegetarian family that eats a lot of tofu? Additionally, some people consider the EPA guidelines to be too liberal and prefer to be more conservative. Therefore, the paper is very useful to some people. To ask “what’s the big fuss” seems, to me, to be way off the mark, not to mention unprofessional.
With that in mind, I think her criticism of Figure 1 is out of line. “What is up with these figures? Figure 1: What is the point…” Sure, the GMO tests stand out like a sore thumb, but that seemed to be the author’s intention. I found the graphical format to be mildly useful for visualizing the results. Standard deviation is a nice summary statistic, but some of us like to see the population displayed graphically.
My background: geostatistician with 20 years experience. So I have some vaguely relevant expertise, but mostly I’m looking at this through “common sense” goggles.
Reply
Steve
April 23, 2014 at 9:36 pm (Edit)
To start off, I’m completely pro-GMO, I actually do genetic engineering for a living.
But…. this is terrible criticism of a scientific paper. Next time, if you have serious concerns about the *scientific integrity* of a paper, don’t mix in your criticism with comments about citations, style, and aesthetic/comprehension problems with the figures. It dilutes your position.
Just my two cents.
Reply
Knigel
April 23, 2014 at 9:46 pm (Edit)
If you think you can do better, you’re more than welcome to participate in our community project. I fully encourage you to write up your own critique which we may then host for you. You can also jump in on one of our science communication threads or start a new one: http://wiki.skeptiforum.org/wiki/Science_Communication
Comments more telling than the critique. Thank you Knigel.
Amelia Jordan critizises a publication of Bohn et al. of the year 2013 as claimed in the header of this post.
If I open the link to the publication of Bohn et al. I am directed to a most recent publication of Bohn et al. from June 2014. In this publication you will find 10 references already in the introduction and more in the full body of text. I consider this publication as a report of sound science.
So – what is happening here ? Is this sond science, Ms. Jordan not to refer to the correct article ? Could you look into the future ? Could you please cite the article you are probably referring to in your critique. This would be most helpful for the readers to judge if your critique is based on valuable arguments.
With my best regards,
Rainer Hock
Thank you. I’ve updated to 2014. We initially did this in 2013 when this first came out.
Also, for clarity, Amelia doesn’t say there are no references, only that particular claims aren’t properly sourced like they should be. This is true for both 2013 and 2014.
While I agree with most of the critique there is a rather small issue I would like to point out that has to do with the ANOVA statistic. It is quoted from above:
“No control, no way to prove that your data have equal variances or normal distributions.”
Actually, the ANOVA statistic is quite robust. As long as the treatments are independent and equally represented, equal variances or normal distribution can deviate. THAT SAID, you are correct in that the study should have done a Levene Test to test for equal variances or a Shapiro-Wilk test for normal distribution if only to throw “caution” in the wind if they come up significant. I am sure the author of the critique knows this, I just wanted to clarify a point in case a future study is simply dismissed because of this issue (not what I see here, I may point out).
Thank you for your reply. I am still very new to statistics and so didn’t go into much further detail about what should have been done. ANOVA is very robust if you meet the requirements, but you’re right that the authors didn’t provide the necessary evidence via these tests.
Amelia
[…] « science » parallèle « , idéologie et activité économique, par exemple le GenØk en Norvège) et même des revues « scientifiques ». La « science » parallèle aime constituer […]
Hey Amelia,
I just stumbled onto this – nice critique. I’m in the field of nutritional sciences and I thought you might also find it interesting that they report their Fatty Acid measurements in mg/g, and their Minerals in mg/kg. I can’t say for certain but I would guess that these measurements were done to show a change, when in reality, the magnitude of these changes are extremely minimal and nutritionally irrelevant.
-Best,
Kevin
Thank you for your input! I found that overall significance of these changes wasn’t included in the publication, which makes it difficult to understand why the changes are important, if they ever are.
Is there any issue with the glyphosate level assays? That’s all i use this paper for, to see an average of 3 mg/kg of glyphosate in Roundup Ready soy product.
One reason the assay is incorrect is because glyphosate breaks down quite quickly! Starts in a day or two. So if a field was just sprayed and assayed, results could be 100s of times higher than what you would see a day after dry down then a day after harvest then a day after storage, then a day in transport, then a day of cleaning them, then a day in a freezer then a day on the produce shelf, then a day in your fridge, then an hour cooked on your stove.
I don’t believe the glyphosate breaks down quickly in soybeans or other crop products. It breaks down and is also bound in soil by microbes who are able to metabolize it, as well as humic acids and other substances that can capture the glyphosate. But when it’s in a food product without microbial activity, i do not believe it breaks down appreciably.
Hey sage, I’ve taken the liberty of continuing our conversation from the ABC article here. I’m just going to copy paste to whole reply here. The point of contention was you questioned my assertion that levels of glyphosate encountered as residue on food are far below the level that would inhibit gut microbes. Here is my response.
Let’s establish a few things that we need to look for so rather than saying there’s no study looking specifically at this (which may be true) let’s see what kind of data we would needful evaluate such a claim. I’ll start by compiling a list and including what ever relevant data I can find. In your response feel free to include any other data you think we would need. Let’s just spitball here. I can think of two really important parameters we need to evaluate to do this in a simple way:
1) residue levels of glyphosate we could come in contact with on food
2) minimum inhibitory concentrations of various microbiota, preferably ones inhabiting the gut of humans
To address the first there are a couple ways we can find this data. One could look to see what the level of of glyphosate actually is when directly sampled on foods. Another way could be using maximum residue levels (MRL) as a proxy, since these are the levels set by regulatory agencies for what the maximum allowed amount of glyphosate would be.
The second one requires looking to the literature. As much as I don’t think their conclusions are supported by their data, let’s use the 2012 Krüger study since they have a nice table with all the MICs of various microbes. http://www.netwerkvlv.nl/downl…
Let’s look at just the most sensitive, Bifidobacterium adolescentis for now. The MIC is given in table two as .075 mg/ml which converts to 75 ppm
I think using the MRL would be useful in this scenario as it sets the maximum exposure we can expect to see. But we can use actual glyphosate levels if we have the data present. This document from the FAO/WHO joint meeting on pesticide residue looks specifically at glyphosate. Starting on page 9 they give actual residue residue levels that they sampled from various crops.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/t…
These values are given in mg/kg and the highest residue they found was 20 mg/kg in soy, which coverts to 20 ppm glyphosate in 2.2 pounds of soy. Many of the other residue levels were at or around 1 ppm for other crops.
For simplicities sake let’s assume a person ate nothing but soy beans (the crop with the sample that had the highest residue ). Using the information we have available it would take almost 4 kg of soy at 20 mg/kg glyphosate residue to have ingestion of glyphosate at a level that would inhibit the most sensitive species of gut microbe(MIC 75 ppm glyphosate) as determined by the Krüger study. This is assuming all of that glyphosate reaches the intestine which may not be the case.
We could refine this model further by factoring in how long glyphosate remains in the body before being excreted, exactly how much reaches the intestine, the rate of bacterial cell division, the actual amounts of various foods as a proportion of a human diet, the rate of conversion from glyphosate to AMPA but you can see we start increasing the complexity rapidly. And I don’t think any of these factors are going to increase the amount of glyphosate we would expect our gut microbes to encounter, if anything they would lessen the amount.
perhaps there might be an easier way to calculate this, but if you really wanted to be thorough we could make our calculations as complex as the data and our willpower would allow.
But let’s look at another way of assessing exposure of glyphosate.
Another source is this risk assessment conducted by the EPA in 2013. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/F…
In it the EPA concluded that for infants and children, the most sensitive and most exposed cohort, the amount of glyphosate actually encountered was 13% of the ADI. The EPA sets the ADI of glyphosate at .03 mg/kg so that’s .0039 mg/kg which when converted is 39 ppb, that’s billion. This also looks at not only food residue but potential exposure through water and the environment.
So lets assume that the average exposure to glyphosate is around 39 ppb per day. The MIC of the most sensitive species from Krüger is 75 ppm or 75000 ppb. That’s almost 2000 x the expected intake of glyphosate needed to inhibit the most sensitive microorganism from out data set.
Ild appreciate your feed back and tempered criticism of my approach. But I feel given this information it’s safe to conclude that the exposure to glyphosate even at the highest residues encountered in sampled products and intake amongst the most exposed cohort is well below inhibitory levels of even the most sensitive gut flora.
As I’ve said before I don’t doubt that a mechanism for glyphosate effecting gut microbes is possible, what I do doubt is that real world exposure is at concentrations that will cause an effect.
Dominick, i appreciate the effort you put into this, though i wish i could have stopped you toward the beginning with two main points:
* The Kruger study that you cite, i don’t like it. I don’t like it because as far as i can tell from their methods and materials, they used Roundup WatherMax as “glyphosate” which of course is a glyphosate-containing mixture of surfactants and other unspecified chemicals. I prefer to use this study to give a ballpark estimate of level of effect on microbes exposed to pure glyphosate and work from there to consider ecological effect levels as i explain in the next bullet point: Schulz, A., A. Krüper, and N. Amrhein. “Differential sensitivity of bacterial 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthases to the herbicide glyphosate.”FEMS Microbiology Letters 28.3 (1985): 297-301.
* As i have said many times, the MIC of a species of microbe in vitro in single-strain culture is not especially relevant to the effect of glyphosate in a microbial community. The latter is a question of microbial ecology. As a metaphor, note that both the Norway maple and the sugar maple will grow fine in a clearing in isolation, and will reproduce given time. However, in the forest setting, with other trees and with the two maple species competing, the Norway maple has taken over the North American deciduous forest from the sugar maple. That is because of a smallish competitive advantage. Perhaps a better example of seeing the forest for the trees, is the decline of many species with the small rise in temperature or otherwise climate changes from global warming. Some trees are in serious decline because of a slight change in average temperature, or less rainfall, or other small but continuous changes. Other trees will do better as their competition fades.
So, those are my two main points.
Some other observations and details:
* Can’t follow your links… especially the one you call “this risk assessment conducted by the EPA in 2013” at GPO which i’m not able to find by Google given those words, would you provide the title? For some reason, at this website, the links all seem to be abbreviated.
* Until i see otherwise, i will go with a basic level of 1 mg/kg in our food as my guideline to what we’re ingesting. The FAO document and studies like the one reviewed at this website are the best sources i have on typical glyphosate levels in foods. This is a poverty of data, and we should have better data, but so far i haven’t found it. So, if a typical soybean crop these days (and most soybeans are RR nowadays) shows 3 mg/kg of glyphosate, then this is a good ballpark. 100 grams of soy would contain 300 micrograms of glyphosate. That’s a reasonable meal portion.
* Whether glyphosate reaches the distal gut when ingested? Yes, it does. Most of it does. Some is absorbed in the small intestines and passed in urine. A small amount is metabolized into AMPA presumably in the gut microbiome by microbes (presumably Pseudomonas and other species who have this ability). My source for this is the feeding study on the fate of glyphosate done on rats: Brewster, David W., JoAnne Warren, and WILLIAM E. HOPKJNS. “Metabolism of glyphosate in Sprague-Dawley rats: tissue distribution, identification, and quantitation of glyphosate-derived materials following a single oral dose.”Toxicological Sciences 17.1 (1991): 43-51.
* The mass of the gut microbiome is a lot smaller than i originally thought when i began this inquiry. I had read vague weights like “several pounds” but it’s actually more like 200 grams of bacteria if you were to isolate them. A bacterium is around 1-2 picograms in mass.
Since you mention infants, i am concerned about prenatal exposure, when the infant is probably getting exposure to glyphosate through the mother’s exposure, and therefore the “uncultured” infant is exposed to glyphosate with no gut microbiome, and therefore the very first culture to be exposed into the infant’s gut will be mediated by some level of glyphosate in the environment. The placental barrier works against microbes, but not against small-molecule abiotics.
Finally, we can make models all we want, and i think it’s useful thing to do, but in the end, we need to see the actual studies on animals including humans. I’ll be a test subject fr a human experiment, and eat a randomly-assigned double-blind fully specified diet with the only difference being glyphosate presence or absence. I bet we could find a couple hundred other people to do so.
As usual, good to have a dialogue with you, Dominick.
Yeah I don’t particularly care for the Krüger studies, but it was late and I was looking for a source of MICs for gut microbes.ill take a look at the study you cited. For sake of ease though do you happen to know what a lowest MIC was or potential gut microbes? Cause I think in so far as just getting a preliminary idea all we need to figure out is the MICs for different gut microbes and levels of glyphosate exposure.
Are you suggesting that the MICs are going to be lower in a mixed culture environment that more closely mimics the ecology of the gut? I could see hoe that would be possible but how would we test this in vivo? I’m thinking biopsy to take samples from the gut but then what? I guess if we could define species specific markers we could run qPCR on samples to quantify the various gene expression related to the different species in the samples right?
Here’s the link again, it’s to an EPA risk assessment
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-05-01/pdf/2013-10316.pdf
The important information there was assuming that 100 percent of crops that could use glyphosate did and that glyphosate was founds at the maximum allowed levels in the most exposed cohort glyphosate exposure was still calculated to be only 13% of the ADI. Which according to my calculations is somewhere around 39 ppb.
Do you think the difference in MIC between isolated cultures in vitro and mixed cultures in vivo is going to be orders of magnitude different? While I’m sure that competition or concurrent exposure to other substance could have potential synergistic effects, I don’t believe they could overcome the vast difference between exposure levels and MICs. Using a few of your numbers were still talking about exposure to glyphosate being measured in ppb while MICs of gut microbes are still likely being measured in ppm.
Dominick, i would like to keep this simple. I’m doing this in between my actual work. I appreciate the opportunity to work out these questions with you.
I would like to drop the whole question of MIC for the most part, as i don’t think it’s the most relevant parameter. I would like to know the minimum concentration or dose regimen that would change the population of a mixed culture significantly over various lengths of time, like a few week to a few months.
MIC is sort of a weak proxy for what i’m seeking to understand. MIC shows inhibition of growth in isolated culture. I want to know a “burden level” on each species from the presence of glyphosate. Burden level will almost certainly not inhibit growth in a linear fashion. That is important.
A burden would begin to show up at levels lower than the MIC level, in the case of glyphosate, most likely, depending on how the cell deals with the presence of glyphosate, but may *not* noticeably inhibit growth in isolated culture when it’s not the bottleneck to growth rate.
For some species, it seems the opposite is true — they metabolize glyphosate and seem to do better in its presence. Pseudomonas is a notable genus for this quality.
Look at the case of plant cells in this paper:
Rubin, Judith L., C. Greg Gaines, and Roy A. Jensen. “Glyphosate inhibition of 5-enolpyruvylshikimate 3-phosphate synthase from suspension-cultured cells of Nicotiana silvestris.” Plant physiology 75.3 (1984): 839-845.
The plant cells show elevated levels of shikimic acid, up to 364-fold in this study, at 1 mM of glyphosate. This seems to be what also probably happens in microbes, according to another study i recently read on intentional shikimic acid production in microbes. It seems that when you block the EPSPS enzyme, the first step of the pathway still operates.
Essentially, when you monkey-wrench a pathway midstream, the feedback loop is broken and the pathway can commit runaway production of intermediate products. This, of course, usually takes some energy and can deplete other resources and can cause other complications.
One aspect of the study i want to see could be done easily in vitro, with community culture replicates, with glyphosate absent and present at various levels.
As to human or other animal assays of species in the gut microbiome, it can be done in the same way as the geographical/diet microbiome studies being done this way, by fecal analysis.
You can see that this is a viable method of species determination, from this Nat Geo report on recent research that compares gut microbiome from people who eat a western industrialized diet versus hunter-gatherer people and traditional farmers:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/150325-gut-microbiome-diet-hunter-gatherer-bacteria-digestion/
This shows how it can be done, and it gives a background on the kind of changes that diet can cause in the gut microbiome.
So youre looking for glyphosate levels that could cause perturbations in community structure within gut microflora? Doesn’t that kind of assume that gut microbe community composition is static? I don’t know that much about gut microbes, but that doesn’t seem like that would be the case. But I think perhaps that point bears looking into.
Even assuming that such perturbations were occuring, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they would be transient if indeed community structure of gut microbes is dynamic?
I think some of my comrades don’t give you enough credit. You clearly have a sharp mind. I disagree with some of your assertions but I can respect the way you go about trying to justify them. Your one of the few people who I can say that about that I’ve interacted with on disqus, not that my word is worth anything.
Yes, that is what i’m looking for — although i would say not just “perturbations” but “significant perturbations”.
Of course you are right that the gut microbiota are not static at all, and of course there is significant variation among individuals and among different populations of humans. Still, as in macro-ecology, we would be able to see and understand significant trends if they are present, in the same way that we can note the takeover of the forest by the Norway maple over the sugar maple. That has a very real effect, and it’s a large trend that is clearly visible to those who look with the right eyes.
It’s not a simple problem, and yet it is very simple to gather data to show that either (1) it’s not happening at all, which would be great, or (2) something is happening and it merits more study.
Changes from glyphosate presence, if they exist, like most other changes to the gut microbiota, would be partly reversible. The gut microbiota, like most microbial communities, has a historical memory, and yet is very resilient.
In any case, because of the scope of the change in the human diet, i believe strongly that this is worth studying more than many things that do get studied today.
As to your personal comments, i can say the same about you. You’re one of the few people who seems to be here for gaining knowledge as much as for trying to affect the opinions of others, and when you do the latter, it’s generally based on evidence and reason.
The MIC in our lab at work is regurgitated so much that’s it’s beyond the lower limits of OSHA. It makes me regurgitate (lol but anyways). We have a track record at hand (on personal accounts, which aren’t ever accounted for) that the chemicals we work with are safe. This is what I’ve been attempting to scream out for a while now but I am misunderstood due to my lack of communication skills. The LD50 system is flawed and a joke (unfortunately) is relied upon so much it makes me sick to my stomach. We can now be thankful for heart attacks, Parkinson’s, and nerve twitches… I asked for a respirator and was denied because we are not trained, nor do they supply them. I was explained by our EHS on site professional who has been working for 20+ years in the field our nose smell PPT and equipment to this day can test up to PPM, which I searched online and we have overseas equipment that can test PPB, but that doesn’t matter at this point. I want to cry talking about this….
The human nose can detect ppt of some things, like hydrogen sulfide, and thankfully so, because it’s toxic in the low ppm and can be deadly at 100 ppm or so. But you cannot rely on your nose for every toxic synthetic chemical, and even with hydrogen sulfide, your nose can get overwhelmed and stop smelling it at deadly levels. I’ve done lab work with anaerobic microbes that generated H2S and it’s not fun. I felt the effects on my body at ppb in the air, for sure.
I agree, the LD50 system is largely a joke. It is useful only for acute non-cumulative toxicity and yet it gets used for so much more.
People have been in a hyper-rational frame of mind, believing in an overly linear conception of the human organism, and of nature in general. Organisms are complex systems with many feedback loops and many interactions that we are only beginning to understand. The gut microbiome is one such locale of this opening, and it’s been called “the forgotten organ” (as of 2006) for this reason. Amazing how much people can miss the forest for the trees, sometimes. Humans are much more complex than the machines that humans make. We are much more than bodies with brains.
I’m attempting a lawsuit and need someone like you due to my situation…. Where can I get help from somebody like a brain like yours?
Also the gentlemen i work with (who are amazing people at heart btw) who have a terrible diet, which would contain a lot of GMOs have even worse symptoms of illness….
Good questions.
Here we go, Dominick.
I finally got into the seminal 1972 paper by Jaworski. It contains the sensitivity readings we need, clearly spelled out, on a single bacterium species.
Jaworski, Ernest G. “Mode of action of N-phosphonomethylglycine. Inhibition of aromatic amino acid biosynthsis.” Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry20.6 (1972): 1195-1198.
I post the relevant table as an image below. Note that PMG refers to glyphosate, as it was an earlier acronym for the chemical. Note the concentrations that show growth inhibition as measured by optical density. Note that 10 uM shows significant inhibition, and presumably 1 uM would also reflect significant inhibition, interpolating by the values shown by this Monsanto scientist.
http://i61.tinypic.com/v58v83.png
A few remarks…. I, like Dominick Dickerson, have also taken the liberty of following you here from a different conversation.
1) I don’t see why the use of a glyphosate formulation (in the Kruger 2012 study) instead of pure glyphosate is an issue. When searching for a minimal concentration that inhibits growth, the worst-case scenario would be that it is one of the formula additives (or an interaction with an additive) doing the inhibiting instead of glyphosate itself. But then that would just mean that the inhibition due to glyphosate begins at higher concentrations. So overall you are seeing a lower bound. And if that lower bound lies above the range of glyphosate in food then all is well.
2) I note in the Kruger 2012 study that Table 2 actually shows cell counts at the MIC and at control. Does this help. Not being a microbiologist I am unfamiliar with the technical side of these counts and find it difficult to interpret the numbers (which are noted as “reciprocal log 10”). Can you tell me what this means?
3) I also don’t understand why you prefer to use the Schulz et al (1985) study to yield “a ballpark estimate of level of effect on microbes exposed to pure glyphosate” when the sensitivity part of that study was carried out not on microbes but on isolates of EPSP synthase. Surely if you consider it misleading to carry out sensitivity studies on bacterial monocultures then it is even more misleading to carry out the studies on purified solutions of single molecules from those monocultures.
Bruce,
1) When studying glyphosate, i only admit data that tests glyphosate alone. I will not include data on formulations because it’s not what i’m focusing on. I can’t take a study very seriously when they use the word “glyphosate” to refer to Roundup WeatherMax formulation. It’s not accurate, and MIC is not particularly what i’m looking for although i’d like to get a good data-set on glyphosate-based MIC levels nonetheless.
2) I have to admit that i don’t understand the meaning of “reciprocal log 10” in the Kruger (2012) Table 2 footnote b. Perhaps someone else here will know. I’ve also had trouble interpreting the Kruger group diary cow study (2014) Table 2. I wish that scientific papers were written more carefully.
3) You are right, here. I must admit my mistake. I did misinterpret the meaning of the data of that graph in the 1985 Shulz paper. It’s not MIC on cells, but it’s sensitivity of the various EPSPS enzymes. Thank you for pointing this out. I shall continue to look for best sources for growth inhibition levels in relation to glyphosate, as well as burden levels.
Still the data on the differential levels of EPSPS enzymes from different species being affected differentially by orders of magnitude is very telling, and may be a better indication of possible burden levels than MIC. It does suggest strongly that there is a differential burden on microbial cells of different species by glyphosate’s presence. This is also born out by studies on endophytic bacterial populations in which Pseudomonas spp do better in presence of glyphosate and other species suffer.
1) My attitude is to use data coming from a design that is not perfect, but to acknowledge the shortcomings and interpret the results cautiously. We should not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
To this end, I wouldn’t completely ignore studies that use a Roundup formulation instead of pure glyphosate. In particular, I outlined in my previous post a train of thought that makes a study using glyphosate with additives interpretable if one is looking for a minimal inhibitory concentration. If one uses a cocktail of agents and finds no inhibition at a certain concentration, then (barring interactions between the components) that means that none of the components had an effect. The Kruger 2012 study can be interpreted in this way … glypohosate has ne effect when Roundup has no effect, and so on.
2) I would look into the cell count data in the Kruger 2012 paper. I think it might help you. It sound like Table 2 somehow contains log of cell counts in which case the difference between the values in the control and glyphosate columns is the log of the ratio of control/treatment counts at MIC. A difference of 2 would then mean 1% inhibition, a difference of 3 would mean 0.1% inhibition and so on. I am guessing here though! Perhaps you could contact Dr. Shehata, who appears to be the corresponding author on the paper, and ask.
3) The 1985 Schulz paper does contain data on cellular growth (as opposed to enzymatic activity), but only at a single, high, glyphosate concentration of 5mM. The data, shown in Table 1, reveal that 2 strains of P. aeruginosa display no growth inhibition at 5 mM glyphosate despite having EPSP synthase activity 50% inhibited at that concentration. This indicates the capability of this strain to overproduce the enzyme in comparison with growth requirements. As a null hypothesis I assume that other bacterial species have similar capabilities. This is why I don’t think that quantifying glyphosate concentrations as so many molecules per cell is particularly informative. What is important is the ratio of glyphosate to synthase molecultes and I don’t know what this is.
Bruce, i appreciate our dialogue here.
1) On reconsideration, i agree with this, if we note that the glyphosate concentration in what they are calling “glyphosate” is about half glyphosate, and remember that MIC is the amount required to inhibit all growth, not just to slow growth. It is very possible and even likely that the amount required to slow growth by, say 10%, is much lower than the MIC value.
2) Indeed, i bet you’re probably right about the interpretation of the values in the cell count columns. (We should not have to guess.) Your previous question was about the meaning of “reciprocal log 10” in the footnote, and it was the word “reciprocal” that i believe threw both of us. I would interpret it as a simple log value, and then you would be right that a difference of 2, for example, would indicate an inhibition by a factor of 100, a value of 3 by a factor 1000, etc. I wish their method were spelled out more simply. So, to continue this train of thought, we find that the difference in log value of cell count for Bifidus (Bifidobacterium adolescentis) is almost 5, which would make it inhibited by a factor of almost 10,000 at the MIC they found, which was 0.075 mg/ml, i believe (although the text says “ug/ml” — micrograms per ml! I am so tired of papers having critical errors like this. I assume they meant mg/ml — big difference.)
Anyway, i will write to Shehata with these questions about the meaning of the values and whether ug/ml is a typo.
But… this is a high level of glyphosate as compared to that we might find in our gut, yet a 10,000-fold inhibition is a *huge* inhibition, according to my reckoning. Both values are very high compared to what we probably see in our gut microbiome, so if our interpretation of the paper’s opaque language is correct, then it still suggests the validity of the hypothesis. At least, it doesn’t rule it out. I would hold that MIC is not the right measurement, and the levels of glyphosate are too high, and what we really need is more focused research with conditions closer to the gut microbiome and the actual dose levels.
3) As for this line of reasoning, it may not be so valid. Pseudomonas has been shown to metabolize glyphosate, so the mechanism of resistance is not necessarily directly related to the sensitivity of the EPSPS to glyphosate. I don’t think your null hypothesis in this case holds. I really need to look up the research on the differential effects that shows Pseudomonas resistance to glyphosate, again, but i believe that it metabolizes it to AMPA, and in some experiments, Pseudomonas actually did *better* in some conditions with the presence of glyphosate, whereas other bacteria of course did worse.
I will write to Dr Shehata now, and ask the simple questions about how to interpret the data. If i hear back, i will report it here.
[Edit: wrote to Dr Shehata and asked about the semantic interpretation as well as any explanation of their MIC measurements he would like to add.]
Good! I eagerly await word from Dr Shehata then.
My reading of the Kruger 2012 paper is that when they talk of a 5 mg/ml concentration of glyphosate they mean exactly that. They are not saying 5 mg/ml of Roundup, they are saying they prepared a medium with however much Roundup was needed to achieve 5 mg/ml glyphosate.
Yes, i hope i hear back. Still, we should not have to interpret research papers as if we’re reading Dostoyevsky and pondering what he means by a specific word. It should be easily understood.
Even googling “reciprocal log 10 cell count” returns nothing useful. If it’s a common term used for cell counts, then it would be alright, but it doesn’t seem to be a common term or technique.
All they give us in the text, i think, is:
“The minimal inhibitory concentration (MIC) of Roundup UltraMax was determined in triplicate in a 24-well microtiter plate. 100 ul of tested bacteria (10^5 cfu/ml) was added to 900 ul broth media containing different concentrations of glyphosate (5.0, 2.40, 1.20, 0.60, 0.30, 0.15 and 0.075 mg/ml). Plates containing diluted glyphosate and bacteria were incubated at 37 C (Table 1). Bacterial growth was evaluated on suitable agar medium. Culture condition for each bacterium is shown in Table 1. The MIC value was evaluated by quantitative analysis of bacteria on agar plate.”
I assume from this that they placed a standard density culture for each bacterial species into an array of different concentrations of Roundup Ultramax (and this is what makes me think their “glyphosate” levels refer to full formulation levels)… and they they note which level shows no growth at all in the incubation period, and then perhaps interpolate a value that may be between one of the 7 glyphosate levels? The phrase “by quantitative analysis” is very vague, don’t you think? They may as well say “We found out the MIC by doing science.”
Hope you do get a varied vacation that includes more than minimum inhibitory concentrations of bacteria in herbicide.
I suspect MIC was determined by some sort of light density measurement. Put plates in a microscope, take a picture using a ccd, then measure the intensity of transmitted light as a ccd level. Once you see an increase in transmitted light past a certain level then that is your MIC because it indicates fewer bacterial cells are around. At least that is how I would do it. It would be pretty sensitive. It is all guesswork though.
Right now it is gardening, glyphosate, gardening, glyphosate. I call that varied.
Putting in gardens myself. I’ll have a few thousand square feet planted by next week.
Bruce, i have found more readable data on the inhibition of EPSP synthase by glyphosate, in the 1980 paper:
Steinrücken, H. C., and N. Amrhein. “The herbicide glyphosate is a potent inhibitor of 5-enolpyruvylshikimic acid-3-phosphate synthase.” Biochemical and biophysical research communications 94.4 (1980): 1207-1212.
As you can see, there is inhibition even at 1 uM and more than 50% inhibition at 10 uM.
http://i61.tinypic.com/qnqw6x.png
Bruce,
I found some good data clearly explained in the seminal 1972 paper by Jaworski. It contains the sensitivity readings we need, clearly spelled out, on a single bacterium species.
Jaworski, Ernest G. “Mode of action of N-phosphonomethylglycine. Inhibition of aromatic amino acid biosynthsis.” Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry20.6 (1972): 1195-1198.
I post the relevant table as an image below. Note that PMG refers to glyphosate, as it was an earlier acronym for the chemical. Note the concentrations that show growth inhibition as measured by optical density. Note that 10 uM shows significant inhibition, and presumably 1 uM would also reflect significant inhibition, interpolating by the values shown by this Monsanto scientist.
http://i61.tinypic.com/v58v83.png
What you have here, my friend, is experimental evidence for 75% inhibition of microbial growth by 1-2 ppm glyphosate which is in the range seen in food. So that is very interesting!
Two caveats.
First, R japonicum is not a gut-colonizing bacterium. It is a nitrogen-fixing bacterium. I have picked up (in my very spotty readings) tangential mention that there is some interaction between the shikimate and nitrogen-fixing pathways that render the nitrogen-fixing bacteria more sensitive to glyphosate than others. [see, for example section 2.4 of Sviridov et al in Current Environmental Issues and Challenges (2014) Cao and Orru (eds)]. I think that going forward your statements would have to reflect this, i.e., that the demonstrated low-glyphosate sensitivity is so far not for the traditional gut microbiome.
Second, one would hope for some replication of the result over 40 years. I suspect, though, that it must indeed be out there.
I’ve been thinking about your reply 3). I don’t think it holds Here’s why.
It doesn’t matter whether Pseudomonas varieties metabolize glypohosate or not. Figure 1 of Schulz et al shows that the activity of EPSP synthase is 50% inhibited at 5 mM glyphosate and Table 1 shows that in a well-mixed solution containing an oversupply of glyphosate at 5 mM concentration, the growth of Pseudomonas was untouched. To me , this is evidence that there is a considerable amount of overproduction of EPSP synthase in these cells. In the absence of contrary evidence, once again the null hypotheisis is that other bacterial species are similar. Hence, 20% inhibition of enzyme activity does not equate to an inhibition of growth…
Consider, though, that for glyphosate to block EPSPS, it must be in contact with it within the cell membrane, and if the cell is able to metabolize or break down glyphosate before it blocks the EPSPS, at some rate, this would be a factor in addition to the sensitivity of the particular EPSPS to glyphosate that would moderate the rate of cell burden in the presence of the chemical.
Also, there are clues that some unculturable microbes may also be able to mineralize glyphosate, in the paper “Degradation of the phosphonate herbicide glyphosate in soil: evidence for a possible involvement of unculturable microorganisms” in Soil Biology and Biochemistry 31 (1999) 991-997:
“Results suggest that at least the first steps in herbicide degradation could be accomplished by some microbial species unable to grow in vitro and form visible colonies on plates.”
Further clues as to the nature of the metabolism of glyphosate:
“The first step in the predominant degradation pathway is the cleavage to glyoxylate and amino-methyl-phosphonic acid (AMPA), that is also biologically degradable (Rueppel et al., 1977).”
Most telling, though, is this paper:
Moore, J. Kent, Hugh D. Braymer, and Alworth D. Larson. “Isolation of a Pseudomonas sp. which utilizes the phosphonate herbicide glyphosate.”Applied and Environmental Microbiology 46.2 (1983): 316-320.
“A strain of bacteria has been isolated which rapidly and efficiently utilizes the
herbicide glyphosate (N-phosphono-methyl-glycine) as its sole phosphorus source
in a synthetic medium.”
Seriously?
when is the last time you have eaten a soybean 5 seconds after harvest?
You don’t even read what i write, do you, Ben?
so you think that a month after or 5 seconds after a spray and the residual levels are identical? Seriously?
Yes, because the glyphosate of which i am speaking is *in* the soybeans, and *in* the corn kernels, and *in* the foodstuffs.
I am not speaking of surface residue. Of course those wash away, deplete, get metabolized by microbes in the soil, and the like. The surfactants are mostly gone and washed away, but the glyphosate is a systemic herbicide and it is deposited in the food parts of the crop as well as the rest of the plant, and there it is stable.
Rightly said, glyphosate is not like any other herbicide, where the residue content is superficial, instead glyphosate is readily absorbed through foliage and translocated throughout the plant, resulting residues in seeds/beans, stems, leaves and straws. these residues cannot be washed, its inside the food.. like you pointed out in kernels, brans and so on.